First a question Kurt- do you think the 'satan' babble is so readily enunciated due to the fact that the evangelicals are so closely tied to the Republican party now?
Also- the war in Ukraine is a rare point in issues where the circle meets. I am a Bernie Sanders progressive, but even in 2016, fellow progressives opposed HRC because she was "going to start a war with Russia" and even now some in progressive circles are pushing to get the USA to stop supporting Russia and blaming the USA for instigating Russia's invasion, echoing MAGA people and their Americal First rhetoric.
I firmly believe, but obviously cannot prove, that Putin wanted to invade Ukraine during a second Trump term in which Trump would have impeded efforts by the USA and western Europe to support Ukraine. But Trump lost and Putin decided to go anyway
Hey Dennis...as for your first question, I think it's symbiotic. The radicals appearing on Fox began describing the democrats as evil in late 1990s. Soon that evolved into GOP politicians, although delicately. That got the evangelicals going, which in turn led the politicians to escalate and on and on. It was a vicious circle of escalation, and it is absolutely no surprise that it has given rise to this QAnon conspiracy cult that believes this passionately. The more you deceive people, the easier it is to get them to take the next step in the deception.
As for Ukraine and Russia: One of the things that infuriates me is the unwillingness for so many people to read a book. First, the idea that Clinton would start a war with Russia that could result in mass genocide just 'cause was fundamentally ridiculous. Yes, she was tough on Russia as Secretary of States - as she should have been. Are progressives - and I side with progressives on lots of policy - really willing to stand back and allow extensive human rights violations with us just shrugging our shoulders. Trump didn't care when Saudis kidnapped, tortured and dismembered an American citizen - and no doubt that was because he was a brown man. One of things to know about progressive history on this: They were the *primary* people pushing post-war to keep the Holocaust secret and demanding that the films from the concentration camps not be shown. The reason? It would enrage the public and allow for the imposition of extreme terms inflicted on Germany. (There's a book - Inside the Vicious Heart - which discusses this and a lot of other post-war events. Really recommend it.)
The point is, to vote based on what might happen, to treat citizens of other nations as unimportant because they aren't American - and make no mistake, that is actually what those progressives are demanding - is fundamentally immoral. Trump abandoned human rights as a foreign policy issue. I cannot believe that progressives stood back and cheered for that.
As for Putin's intent: Absolutely no doubt he would have invaded Ukraine whether Trump was president or not. He made an incredible miscalculation (Not surprising, because like Trump, Putin is a malignant narcissist.) He made a gamble that his cyberattack on the United States would successfully put a moron in office, who could be manipulated with flattery. It worked. This led to him persuading Trump that NATO was a bad thing for Trump, and as a result, Trump began to destabilize NATO.
Putin would have invaded if Trump was in office, no question. But he believed that NATO was more unstable than it had ever been, and an attack on Ukraine - part 2 of his effort to reconstitute the Soviet Union - would be successful even with Biden in office. What Putin didn't count on is that Biden is fantastic on foreign policy, and pulled NATO back together quickly.
Now the "We might go to war with Russia" is also fundamentally ridiculous. Two nuclear powers have never gone to war, ever, because it is simply too dangerous. Putin does what he can to persuade Americans that will happen, but it is simply untrue.
As for the idea that we should have done nothing for Ukraine - again, you're right that this is like MAGA. It's a "to hell with other people, I only care about Americans," which is an approach by some progressives I simply do not understand. Not only would this entail leaving all nations of the world exposed to the most powerful nation near it, not only would it drain the UN Charter of all meaning, but it would lead to the torture and murder of untold numbers of people. The Ukrainian people do not deserve to be sacrificed, to have their human rights ignored, simply because some people in the west think they don't matter. It's also always been amazing to me that some progressives care about human rights in some nations, but not in others. Why care about human rights in South Africa in the 1980s, while shrugging at it in Belarus, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, China and so many others? We were silent on Darfur, and many progressives rightfully protested that. I am an absolutist: We stand up for human rights all over the world. If that means sanctions, so be it. And if that means standing up for the UN Charter in defense of there sovereignty of smaller nations against larger, so be it. This is where the war in Iraq failed: the rationale was tenuous at best, and put us on the opposite side of the UN Charter.
So, progressives need to stand back and decide: What do they stand for? Are human rights not in the progressive value system? Do we hide from reality - like progressives pushed us to do regarding the Holocaust post-WW II? Or do we face it and do what we can - without involving ourselves in civil wars or non-defensive battles - to help others? We are saving lives in Ukraine. If the country fell to the Russians, the chaos and torture and murders and rapes wouldn't be seen. But ignorance on our part of what was happening wouldn't make the atrocities go away.
This is one area where I think Chris Hedges is seriously off base. He agrees with the GQP that Ukraine is “corrupt,” and I see this claim on Twitter all the time, but I seriously think we had no other choice other than to stop Putin’s meat grinder of a war.
" Republican politicians either don’t know what communism is or know that their supporters certainly don’t." That is the most succinct definition of Republican disinformation on the topic.
It's a long-lived problem though. Republicans have been screaming "communism" at everything they don't like for a long long time. They took a break for a few years, but now it has come roaring back.
First a question Kurt- do you think the 'satan' babble is so readily enunciated due to the fact that the evangelicals are so closely tied to the Republican party now?
Also- the war in Ukraine is a rare point in issues where the circle meets. I am a Bernie Sanders progressive, but even in 2016, fellow progressives opposed HRC because she was "going to start a war with Russia" and even now some in progressive circles are pushing to get the USA to stop supporting Russia and blaming the USA for instigating Russia's invasion, echoing MAGA people and their Americal First rhetoric.
I firmly believe, but obviously cannot prove, that Putin wanted to invade Ukraine during a second Trump term in which Trump would have impeded efforts by the USA and western Europe to support Ukraine. But Trump lost and Putin decided to go anyway
Hey Dennis...as for your first question, I think it's symbiotic. The radicals appearing on Fox began describing the democrats as evil in late 1990s. Soon that evolved into GOP politicians, although delicately. That got the evangelicals going, which in turn led the politicians to escalate and on and on. It was a vicious circle of escalation, and it is absolutely no surprise that it has given rise to this QAnon conspiracy cult that believes this passionately. The more you deceive people, the easier it is to get them to take the next step in the deception.
As for Ukraine and Russia: One of the things that infuriates me is the unwillingness for so many people to read a book. First, the idea that Clinton would start a war with Russia that could result in mass genocide just 'cause was fundamentally ridiculous. Yes, she was tough on Russia as Secretary of States - as she should have been. Are progressives - and I side with progressives on lots of policy - really willing to stand back and allow extensive human rights violations with us just shrugging our shoulders. Trump didn't care when Saudis kidnapped, tortured and dismembered an American citizen - and no doubt that was because he was a brown man. One of things to know about progressive history on this: They were the *primary* people pushing post-war to keep the Holocaust secret and demanding that the films from the concentration camps not be shown. The reason? It would enrage the public and allow for the imposition of extreme terms inflicted on Germany. (There's a book - Inside the Vicious Heart - which discusses this and a lot of other post-war events. Really recommend it.)
The point is, to vote based on what might happen, to treat citizens of other nations as unimportant because they aren't American - and make no mistake, that is actually what those progressives are demanding - is fundamentally immoral. Trump abandoned human rights as a foreign policy issue. I cannot believe that progressives stood back and cheered for that.
As for Putin's intent: Absolutely no doubt he would have invaded Ukraine whether Trump was president or not. He made an incredible miscalculation (Not surprising, because like Trump, Putin is a malignant narcissist.) He made a gamble that his cyberattack on the United States would successfully put a moron in office, who could be manipulated with flattery. It worked. This led to him persuading Trump that NATO was a bad thing for Trump, and as a result, Trump began to destabilize NATO.
Putin would have invaded if Trump was in office, no question. But he believed that NATO was more unstable than it had ever been, and an attack on Ukraine - part 2 of his effort to reconstitute the Soviet Union - would be successful even with Biden in office. What Putin didn't count on is that Biden is fantastic on foreign policy, and pulled NATO back together quickly.
Now the "We might go to war with Russia" is also fundamentally ridiculous. Two nuclear powers have never gone to war, ever, because it is simply too dangerous. Putin does what he can to persuade Americans that will happen, but it is simply untrue.
As for the idea that we should have done nothing for Ukraine - again, you're right that this is like MAGA. It's a "to hell with other people, I only care about Americans," which is an approach by some progressives I simply do not understand. Not only would this entail leaving all nations of the world exposed to the most powerful nation near it, not only would it drain the UN Charter of all meaning, but it would lead to the torture and murder of untold numbers of people. The Ukrainian people do not deserve to be sacrificed, to have their human rights ignored, simply because some people in the west think they don't matter. It's also always been amazing to me that some progressives care about human rights in some nations, but not in others. Why care about human rights in South Africa in the 1980s, while shrugging at it in Belarus, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, China and so many others? We were silent on Darfur, and many progressives rightfully protested that. I am an absolutist: We stand up for human rights all over the world. If that means sanctions, so be it. And if that means standing up for the UN Charter in defense of there sovereignty of smaller nations against larger, so be it. This is where the war in Iraq failed: the rationale was tenuous at best, and put us on the opposite side of the UN Charter.
So, progressives need to stand back and decide: What do they stand for? Are human rights not in the progressive value system? Do we hide from reality - like progressives pushed us to do regarding the Holocaust post-WW II? Or do we face it and do what we can - without involving ourselves in civil wars or non-defensive battles - to help others? We are saving lives in Ukraine. If the country fell to the Russians, the chaos and torture and murders and rapes wouldn't be seen. But ignorance on our part of what was happening wouldn't make the atrocities go away.
This is one area where I think Chris Hedges is seriously off base. He agrees with the GQP that Ukraine is “corrupt,” and I see this claim on Twitter all the time, but I seriously think we had no other choice other than to stop Putin’s meat grinder of a war.
Thanks for doing the tough (ghoulish) reading that I am too afraid to do and sharing it with hopefully sane people.
It really is like swimming in sewage. I can only handle so much at a time without having the need to take a break. It is...an experience.
It is absolutely sewage!
" Republican politicians either don’t know what communism is or know that their supporters certainly don’t." That is the most succinct definition of Republican disinformation on the topic.
It's a long-lived problem though. Republicans have been screaming "communism" at everything they don't like for a long long time. They took a break for a few years, but now it has come roaring back.
Thoroughly horrifying……….and yet 💯 accurate. The worst is still to come.
I'm afraid that is so true.